FAQ

We are not "choice feminists." The entire premise of celebrating any choice at all, so long as it is made by a woman is innately demeaning, as it implies it's some sort of accomplishment for a woman to make a decision of any sort, and that her decisions carry no moral weight, like those of someone of extremely diminished capacity. Women are fully human; we are not naturally going to make only good choices. Everyone makes mistakes, which means not every choice is a cause for celebration.

We can disagree with other people without attacking them. Shaming other people is not a good strategy for helping them make better choices for themselves and others, since so many destructive choices are the result of self-hatred to begin with. Additionally, beyond being ineffective, it's immoral.

It's important to realize that sometimes feeling bad about things is a good thing. It would be disturbing if you didn't feel bad if you killed someone with your car, found out that your amazing new partner is cheating on his wife with you, or that you had inadvertently been getting your house cleaned by trafficked workers. Most people are more concerned with avoiding feeling bad than they are with avoiding doing bad things. If you feel conflicted or convicted after interacting with our philosophy, consider that you are being called to change your mind and your behavior, and not to police our tone.

In some cases, nothing. There are times where it makes sense for people to shave, such as swimmers reducing drag in the pool or surgeons preparing to make an incision. Culturally, men and women have shaved different parts of the body for different reasons, including ancient Egyptians and Greeks preferring total removal of body hair (seemingly) for both men and women, until men got tired of undergoing the expensive, painful, and time-consuming process, but still expected it of women, who of course had nothing else to do (/sarcasm).

Some cultures shave certain parts as a ritual purification, such as the heads of newborns, although that is sometimes fraught with misogyny (e.g. the hair is dirty because it touched the mother's genitals during birth, for example).

So what's our objection? We have many.

In some cases, nothing. There are times where it makes sense for people to wear makeup, such as mimes, clowns, actors, and sometimes warriors. For people who would prefer to conceal a scar, that can make sense too. In some cultures, such as France, the women might only wear a slash of bold lipstick which is less problematic than full contouring. (However, even then, those women are still made self conscious of how they eat/kiss/greet people, and are still exposed to toxins and heavy metals in makeup.)

So what's our objection? We have many.

Helen had an out-of-body experience while undergoing laser hair removal, the gift of a well-intentioned relative. She wondered what her future husband was doing, and realized that there was a zero percent chance he was having his hair removed from his genitals in case his future wife didn't like it. This triggered a shift in thinking that resulted in Helen dropping hair removal, bleaching/perming her head hair, high heels/restrictive shape wear, makeup and ultimately feminine performance.

Forty changed schools many times growing up and always felt like she missed out on some sort of female right-of-passage where one learned to write in bubble letters and perform beauty rituals. Her inability to sustain interest and effort in the sky-high female beauty standards of her high school is probably due to some neurodivergence, since it wasn't an intentional choice to be a nonconformist. She had the odd experience of sometimes being taken under the wing of a frustrated friend or acquaintance who would give her a makeover, which generally resulted in even more unwanted sexually-charged attention.

Ultimately, Forty was brought round on the hair removal issue, one area where she unthinkingly agreed that it was "necessary," through Helen's influence, plus reading a bunch of posts on Radblr (radfem Tumblr) that drove home how much of an insane double standard it is to demonize women's body hair.

We feel your pain! It is so hard to grow up in a culture that normalizes "effortless perfection" for women's appearance, while downplaying the enormous effort and cost it takes to look that way. The short answer is yes, it will get easier, sooner than you think. The longer answer is here.

Helen: I do not wear cosmetics, remove facial or body hair, dye my hair, and have never used injections, botox, or plastic surgery. I believe that these acts change the expectations of women generally, and it's important for me to assert the reality of my health, age, ethnicity, and lifestyle to myself and anyone who may see me. I also wish to protect my health from the harm of many of those products or procedures.

I get haircuts that suit my texture and length preferences, use curl/wave-friendly shampoo and conditioners, and occasionally add an organic gel. I do not micromanage my texture and mainly focus soothing my scalp seborrheic dermatitis and keeping my hair follicles moisturized. I do not demonize frizz or uphold an idea of "perfect" looking texture. This is a baseline level of care that many men with curly hair do, so it's not sex-oppressive or dehumanizing. In fact, a man educated me on how to take care of my scalp and hair, as both were very dry and damaged when we met, and I was blindly following shampoo commercials.

I wear my wedding jewelry and jewelry from departed loved ones occasionally. Sometimes I put my hair up, or part it a specific way. These things don't bother me because they're not sex specific, nor am I covertly contributing to a cultural misunderstanding that women just have metal rings growing around their fingers.

Lastly, I have other habits or products in my life that offer other utility and happen to improve my appearance. Flossing makes my smile look better, exercise helps me sleep better and when I sleep better my skin and eyes look better, I do not tan given my risk of melanoma therefore I do not have the slings of sun damage, and my love of natural fibers in clothing suits my endocrine system and looks better on me as it ties the whole "natural look" together.

I am not against "anything that may improve your appearance" or even a baseline desire all humans have to look good. I am against the obsession with looking "perfect", inhuman, or like someone else.

Forty: I personally love my chestnut brown hair. When it starts to go gray, I am going to love that too. I see some signs of aging in my face and am aware that there will likely be a sudden shift in that regard sometime in the next ten years (I am 40). I wash my hair as needed, rarely use anything other than water on my face, and currently have no "skincare" to speak of, other than the benefits that come with the red light therapy I do for its myriad health benefits.

It's been a while, but sometimes I have been known to wear a bold lip color, sometimes paint my nails (an obviously fake color), and wear a few pieces of jewelry, like my wedding ring. I do not wear foundation/eye makeup, nor have I had any cosmetic work done. I am opposed on multiple grounds to fillers, botox, and the like. I have not done it, but am not opposed to dermatology treatments that can treat damage or scarring. Overall, I want to be known as my real self, inviting others to either appreciate or avoid my authenticity. I do not believe in doing "natural makeup," as this raises the baseline for other women.

We are not fighting beauty, but the ever-escalating, insane, unnatural beauty standards inflicted on women by a capitalistic system that seeks to make women insecure so they buy "solutions" to mostly invented problems, while simultaneously hyperstimulating men until they are incapable of natural attractions or affections for real women. The problem isn't beauty as it naturally occurs in people. For a more thorough look at this, go here.

This one is more of an accusation than anything else, but it comes up a lot. We get into greater detail on this issue here, but the short answer is, we don't believe we should leave the work of fighting these insane standards to people who are already dealing with more discrimination than we are.

You may not feel that you can dial back your compliance with beauty culture, depending on your own circumstances. This page is not about shaming you for doing your best within a ridiculous situation, whether at a job with sexist norms, or while living as a dependent in a dysfunctional household.

When it comes to dating, be aware that you want the trash to take itself out. If a man thinks your natural body is disgusting, how do you think he is going to feel when you gain weight, stretch marks, etc. during pregnancy? What if you get sick and "lose your looks"? Weeding out porn-rotted men, who are typically the ones who are so horrified by natural women, is a blessing. They truly prove the adage, "Better alone than in bad company."

As for work, do the best you can at this time. Maybe you push back on sexist handbooks that demand feminine performance from women and no corresponding labor from men (e.g. women must wear heels/makeup). Maybe you ease off of your beauty routines over time and let colleagues get to know your real face/hair. Maybe find a better employer or work on building your own business so you can do what you want. It's always better to at least do what you can and to support others doing the same.

If overnight, women stopped complying with demands to remove their body hair and to use makeup to look airbrushed, we would find that everyone just got over this in a matter of weeks/months. Do what you can to shift the standard.

We get it. Both of us hate how we look with arms jutting out of our shoulders. So gross.

Do you hear how insane that sounds? You've been brainwashed. We recommend you start with our deprogramming journal and simply expose yourself to as many images of natural women as you reasonably can. Train yourself to never say anything nasty about your body or anyone else's. This is a very normal stage in the journey toward loving your real self. It is not your fault that the hair removal industry (and at one point the US Department of Defense!) spends billions demonizing your hair and you have fallen for it. It is however to your own benefit to resist this misogynistic message so you can experience the bliss of living in and loving your real body.

There are many ways to "put effort into your appearance" that do not mean complying with (literally) toxic beauty standards. We recommend you start with our deprogramming journal. You have spent so much time living in an absolutely crazy-negative culture and it has doubtless had an impact on you. Learning to find the line between "insane beauty standards that cost hundreds/thousands a month" and "reasonable routines that make me feel and look good" is key here. Even Forty brushes her hair! Helen is great at designing clothes and is as selective as anyone can be about what she wears.

You might be pleasantly surprised at how it feels to stop warring with your body, even though that labor is especially demanded of women with larger bodies. You can have peace even if the world around you is crazy. You may also find that as you stop fighting your body's natural hair/appearance, your self acceptance goes up and it is easier to do things that are real "self care," and not just conforming to weird demands. For example, when Forty stopped worrying about her pant size, she found herself more able to be a regular exerciser. She looked and felt better only after she stopped focusing on the worst reasons for taking care of herself. In other words, it is impossible for you to know how you're going to feel about your looks/body once you adjust your thinking on the matter.

This can be tough, depending on the nature of the partnership, and the partner in particular. For us, if we were dating someone who hated our natural body/face, that would be breakup territory. Inside a marriage, it's something to work through. We will do more in-depth work on this, because so much depends on how your spouse handles conflict, how they communicate their feelings, and how well they make space for you to disagree with them and still be loved. There isn't a pat answer here, but the shortest possible version is to see this as an opportunity to understand your partner better, and make decisions accordingly.

Helen only made slight changes to her routine after meeting her now-husband; he actually met her the last night she wore makeup. She was already rocking her body hair, natural curls, and so on. For Forty, the only "big" shift was giving up shaving her legs/underarms entirely around year 14 of marriage. It took a few months for enough hair to come in where she could see how much was left after all the lasering, and realize she never has and never will see what her natural legs would have looked like, as she had never left them alone since puberty. Her underarms have no hair from the laser hair removal.

Forty's husband never said anything and after a few months, she mentioned her decision. He simply said he'd noticed. He doesn't mind. By this point in the marriage there had been plenty of variation in dedication to shaving over the winter months/pregnancies, so perhaps he had already adjusted his expectation of hairlessness.

For both of us, dealing with a spouse with a hatred of our natural bodies is a theoretical topic. We feel it would be hard to have sex with someone who feels entitled to customize our body and demonize a normal adult trait. It might be helpful to slowly ease off beauty routines while having those discussions about this issue, including helping one's spouse see the reasonableness of learning to reverse the brain washing on this issue. They may need to explore the societal belief that the beauty of a wife reflects the status of her spouse, an objectifying situation if ever there was one.

It should go without saying that abuse is never acceptable and placating an abuser does not afford real safety or happiness.

Your appearance is the least interesting thing about you. Moving toward a culture where we stop conflating physical beauty with goodness would liberate people all across the beauty spectrum in different ways. Imagine if being ugly did not diminish this person's worth, but that a stranger was open to discovering a world of depth? Imagine if being beautiful did not mean fielding comments about having it so much easier and facing judgment for presumed sexual immorality, stupidity, etc.

Our stance on this is more positive than the mainstream "body positivity movement," which seeks to merely expand the parameters of hotness to make more people bang-able. (The original body positivity movement was about people with facial deformities, scars, amputations, etc. being helped to feel good in their bodies; this is obviously commendable!) We aim for body neutrality because most aspects of your physical appearance are, in fact, neutral. It is liberating to appreciate all that your body does for you without criticizing it for not appealing to the widest possible audience as "hot."

Imagine if you spent more time noticing how many wonderful tasks your body carries out without being told (or thanked), how incredible your senses actually are, how many things you get to experience because you have a body? Instead of primarily thinking about how you look to others and what they think about it, what if you considered the preciousness of your life? We believe that all bodies should be honored regardless of attractiveness because every person is a human being with innate dignity.

Many people have the experience of raising their children to go against the grain. Think about how many people basically inoculate their children against the secular worldview at the public school or the religious worldview at the religious school, if they disagree.

In addition to being natural and appreciating that in other people, parents can have conversations that help their children understand the bigger picture. It's ok to explain that you disagree with what many people do, or think. In fact, look around at our culture: aren't there many things with which you disagree? Why not equip your child to think through what they are hearing/seeing so they can see the propaganda for what it is?

Because we are morally consistent and do not hate men.

You fight lies with the truth. Someone who lives in a tar pit of comparison has some disordered ideas, so fix them. Figure out what the lie is, and fight it with the truth.

~Lie—> Truth
~I have to be better than everyone else —> I am good enough. My dignity is innate.

~If someone else has something I don't have, it is hurting me —> There is abundance and diversity in the world that means everyone can win while having different strengths and weaknesses.

~If I work hard enough, I can have the most of every positive trait and the least of every negative trait —> I do not need to be better than everyone else to be valuable or loved. I am already valuable and loved. The more I can appreciate the gifts of others, the more love I can put into the world.

So, write down the lies that you believe, and then write out the truth. Our Deprogramming Journal has a number of tools to help you do this and get them deep into your system.

Keep in mind that most women do this, regardless of how they look, and many beautiful women have no idea how beautiful they are. Have you ever had the experience of looking back at an old photo and realizing how good you looked on a day you were obsessing about your weight, acne, or outfit? Have you ever considered that basically every photo of the women in your mom's generation looks pretty good to us, but all of those women were neck-deep in diet culture so severe that doctors were recommending speed or smoking to keep weight down?

That being said, try saying, "It hurts me to hear you talk about yourself that way. Not only are you wrong about looking like a bridge troll, but you're also putting down every other person who is less blessed in the beauty department." And then do not engage in body bashing anymore. If someone starts, start a broken record response of, "Nonsense. Let's discuss something worthy of our intellects, darling!" (Bonus points if you perfect your impression of Edna from the Incredibles.)

And again: boundaries.

We take issue with most claims of "it's natural to....", especially in a capitalistic, patriarchal society where the very body has been commodified. This line is used to justify many things that just ain't so. However, for the sake of argument, let's agree that women have an innate desire to be beautiful. Does it follow that they may do whatever they like in pursuit of this beauty? There are fairy tales that serve as cautionary tales about what happens when a person's vanity goes too far.

There are many things that can support a person's natural beauty, including a good diet, regular exercise, regular sleep, lots of water, no smoking/drinking, sunscreen, red light therapy, meditation, as well as an attractive haircut and clean hair, flattering clothes, and a smile. We are not fighting beauty, but the ever-escalating, insane, unnatural beauty standards inflicted on women by a capitalistic system that seeks to make women insecure so they buy "solutions" to mostly invented problems, while simultaneously hyperstimulating men until they are incapable of natural attractions or affections for real women.

Speak up! You can write both privately mailed/emailed letters, but also ones you publish online (which tends to help force change). For example:

Dear Medical Textbook Company,
I was shocked at the sexism on display in your 2024 Anatomy & Physiology book. While the men were depicted with normal body hair, the women were not. Can you see how this sexist beauty standard has no place in a scientific book? Women are humans; humans are mammals; mammals have hair. Women are just as human as men and should not be depicted in sexualized/stylized manners. On page xx, the woman is depicted with what appear to be levitating breasts--real breasts hang. On all images, the areola are more similar to pornography than to typical sizes or colors of real women. Further, on all depictions of female skeletons showing soft tissue's relative placement, please remember that women have breasts outside their rib cage.

Please write me back to let me know that you have commissioned medically accurate artwork for your next edition and made it available online for people currently suffering through your current edition.

Sincerely,
Harriet Mammalia

If your school has a sexist dress code, rewrite it so that it still helps set a baseline without gendering expectations. It's not crazy that schools want to limit micro shorts and crop tops in a learning environment. (Studies even show that girls and women perform worse on tests when dressed skimpily, even if they are alone while taking the test!) However, calling out girls with a million different rules is not necessary when the dress code can call for things like, "students will wear clothing that covers their shoulders/torsos through X inches above the knee. Clothing should be opaque, loose enough to allow for 2" or more of fabric to be pinched without pulling the shirt taut, and contain no obscene graphics, words, or innuendos. Clothing that is found to be distracting to the learning environment is in violation of the dress code." Obviously the code will vary based on culture and climate, but there is no need for schools to be measuring girls tank straps when they can simply have a gender neutral expectation that shoulders are covered in class.

Dive in! We are building out this website so that you can learn without having to wade through toxic messaging. Often times, our content on Instagram is followed by ads for hair removal. In many accounts with great content, there might be a small army of trolls attacking women, which we find an unnecessary tax on our happiness most of the time.

You can also check out our "other media" tab for books/media we recommend, podcasts where one of us has spoken, and any outside work we have done.

Finally, get involved in this community. Not only is it helpful to ask questions, but when you go to formulate answers, you will find your own thinking challenged. You don't really know anything until you've taught it. Both of us have changed our views tremendously because we couldn't justify our original positions. That's a wonderful thing!

Behind our paywall we have a more robust community, although we strive to make it easy for a newcomer to get a strong grasp on this philosophy without paying anything.

The reason we have different levels is three-fold.
1.) As Derek Sivers, founder of CD Baby, says, "Money is neutral proof that you’re adding value to people’s lives."

We want to be sure that we are adding value to people's lives; people do not spend money on things they do not value. There's nothing wrong with just writing a blog because you love keeping a record that friends and family can read, or having hobbies that do or don't have to make any money. We are not doing either of those things. We are building the tools to protect you from multiple billion dollar industries that have a vested interest in keeping you feeling ugly.

2.) "The laborer deserves his wages." If we are providing you with incredible value, we know you will want to reward that.

3.) When you take on beauty culture, you get a lot of haters. We have several gates in place to help frustrate those who like to come where women are talking and rant and rave about men's problems. Misogyny is so prevalent that when women seek to understand their own situations and solve their problems, it is seen as an attack on men. This is either because some men benefit from female oppression and want nothing to interfere with it continuing, or because they are so used to being centered that it feels like a human right's violation to not have that attention focused on them. Either way, having a paywall allows us to weed out a huge number of people who have nothing to contribute to the conversation but rage bait.

Thank you so much for supporting our work!